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Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm part

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Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm part

Postby jeff » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:50 pm

Surprised this hasn't been put up before, as I've just seen it on a local forum over here:

The Royal Mail are proposing changes to ban the posting of firearms, air guns and component parts. This will affect all of our customers if these proposals go through and may result in the closure of T W Chambers and many other UK based gun shops as there is no other alternative service to ship your orders.
Please see the Royal Mail link below and respond to it before the 17th Sept 2012. As customers who rely on the Royal Mail to ship your orders to you, then you would be entitled to respond to these proposals. Overseas customers please also respond.
Please email your responses to zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com and cc it also to martin.anderson@royalmail.com

Link to Royal Mail proposals, http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/ ... rvices.pdf

Thank You.

T W Chambers & Co


It's the "components" piece that is the most worrying......

I presume most RFD's still use TNT for actual rifles and shotguns?
Jeff

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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby gun nut » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:56 pm

I was just about to post the same thing!
It seems they are incapable of tracking (or not completely losing) any parcels and so feel they can't carry firearms!
One of the reasons they cite for making the changes is they can't check that firearms are coming from/going to an RFD. As they don't scan any parcels anyway what is to stop someone from sending a gun in the post and claiming it is a fishing rod etc.?
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Lock Stock & Barrel » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:23 pm

I still don't see the issue here - this is merely a matter Darwin capitalism - if Royal Mail can't or won't guarantee delivery (without promise of loss or damage, and/or offering to pay the value of the damage or lost item in the event that it does get lost or damaged), then, with all respect, sod 'em. They'll lose that business. There are a hat full of other courier services who'll gladly take your coin for doing same and provide all the required/necessary tracking and insurances for couriering too. And again, if I were to send - using your example - a stock to be reconditioned, then, per se, it may not have a massive monetary value, but in terms of the inconvenience it would cause me through its loss would mean that I'd be inclined to use and pay for a reliable courier service to do that job. All Royal Mail have done, here, is signalled their lack of desire/inability to offer that service to me. If they were the only outfit offering such a service, it would be an issue: but they're plainly not.

That said, to be fair, I'm sure no single courier service, whether state-owned, as with Royal Mail, or private sector e.g. DHL, can state honestly that they've never had a consignment lost or damaged in transit. The only thing you will get back from the private sector firms (assuming you've paid sufficient carriage insurance) is the value of the goods lost or damaged.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Circus Orange » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:26 pm

I wonder what the CWU will think of RM turning away custom when the continue to squeeze and cut their employees.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby gun nut » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:35 pm

The big problem is that private individuals can still legally send airgun parts, moderators (as covered by the VCR act) and firearm bits such as triggers to another private individual. RFDs can also send out uncontrolled items (e.g. non-pressure bearing components). If RM stop allowing these to be posted there are very few couriers that will post any of these parts without having a dealer account (and even then many will not handle ANYTHING to do with firearms). Their minimum charges are often way above the value of an item and they will probably only deliver to an RFD. As an extreme this could mean that a 50p part for an airgun could cost you £30+ to have delivered to your local RFD who would then possibly charge you to pick it up!
Either the higher echelons of RM are antigun or they are saying that they are just to incompetent to be trusted with anything of value (I expect both are true)!
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Lock Stock & Barrel » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:39 pm

Circus Orange wrote:I wonder what the CWU will think of RM turning away custom when they continue to squeeze and cut their employees.


RM's a public sector body - they're not known for their ability to do anything other than spend tax-payers' money; they struggle when it comes to making a living outside of being subsidised the tax-payer; there are tons of other examples who've had the same problems when they were public sector bodies - cf. the miners, British Rail, British Gas...

DHL, TNT and hat full of other delivery services make sizeable profits each year - compared to RM who have the opposite cost model. But, like the others I mention above, once they're privatised, I suspect that will change. RM have gone through many service cuts in the past, as they couldn't make them pay - anyone remember getting two deliveries a day? Went the way of the Dodo years ago.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby libensvolenspotens » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:04 pm

The point that the Royal Mail were making, regarding their inability to guarantee the security of firearms & parts, was that they were liable under the Firearms Act to do so.
They therefore have a choice, either (A) ensure the security of such parcels, at no small cost, which considering the relatively small number involved, would hardly likely to be cost effective or
(B) Prohibit the transfer of firearms , parts etc by mail. Cost zero, loss of business minimal.

If you were the CEO which decision would you make?

Perhaps if some sort of limitation of liability by the Government, for what is still supposedly still a Government owned company, could be arranged, then normal service could be resumed
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Lock Stock & Barrel » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Very reasonable points, libensvolenspotens
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Keef » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:27 pm

There are a number of aspects to consider here.

Firstly RM are only required under the Firearms Acts to "take reasonable precautions to ensure security". They are not required to guarantee security.

Secondly how are users supposed to send rifles by RM anyway? They have withdrawn the insurance from Standard Parcel so nobody in their right mind is going send a gun of any value through this service. This leaves their Special Deliver which can be insured however the size limits mean that virtually no firearm will fit that criteria.

The main crux for the trade and it's customers is the ban on unregulated parts such as triggers and magazines, which will have an effect on availability of spares and the businesses that supply them.

As regards letting RM go it's own way and using couriers the only ones that I am aware of that will transport firearms (that includes low power air guns) are Parcel Force and TNT.

Parcel force require you to have an account, have prior written permission to send firearms and they will only send RFD to RFD. They may also require the sender to prove that the receiver is an RFD.

TNT do a reasonable priced service provided you are an RFD and a member of the Gun Trade Association. If not they will charge you a not inconsiderable sum. I was quoted £55.00 to send a rifle two years ago.

If RM are allowed to pass these rules then the cost of shooting is going to stop a lot of people partaking and put a lot of companies out of business.

You can also say goodbye to ordering bits from the US as there's no guarantee that the package won't end up being delivered by RM with the risk that they will not be delivered.

Edit Note that Parcel Force classify all air guns as firearms irrespective of power level.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby bedwards1966 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:34 pm

'Reasonable precautions to ensure security'. Rather like the wording on our certificates, open to pretty much any interpretation by the courts...

The choice of other couriers who transport firearms is small, losing Royal Mail could be a problem as we don't want to be stuck with just one company that does it - think of the potential price increases for us there!
It's not good to lose Royal Mail, and while many people will continue to send gun parts round, the issue with doing this is that you can't insure them for when they get lost.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby 1in9 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:01 pm

Keef wrote:There are a number of aspects to consider here.

The main crux for the trade and it's customers is the ban on unregulated parts such as triggers and magazines, which will have an effect on availability of spares and the businesses that supply them.
...

If RM are allowed to pass these rules then the cost of shooting is going to stop a lot of people partaking and put a lot of companies out of business.



Exactly. Including my modest business http://RifleMags.co.uk :worried:

We can't even switch to alternative postal services like TNT as they still use Royal Mail Network for final delivery. Plus, a lot of my customers live in far flung rural locations so it's literally Royal Mail or Bust. Courier charges to Shetland anyone?

They need to understand what is and is not licensed, which clearly hasn't been thought through.

Please take a few minutes to provide feedback to the consultation via the BASC link http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/key_iss ... 7EF4E1528F if you value your consumer and shooters rights.
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Coldfinger » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:21 pm

Scopes

Scope mounts

Rails

Empty cases & cartridges?

Bipods

Dies

Speedloaders

Where is the line drawn?
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby FXL5 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:02 am

Umm... I may have overreacted. I slightly regret the last major paragraph, but... well.

It is with sadness that I feel the need to write to you on this subject. I have been a user of the Royal Mail service for many years, and it has been, in the main, both fast and efficient. It is also the most affordable means of sending small-to-medium sized items across the country.

I, as with many shooters, live in a region not particularly well-supplied with gun shops or traders, and thus any new magazine, brass, optics, and so on we wish to purchase must, perforce, come to us by the postal service. This has never before been an issue, and I cannot see how it would be one - all the items generally posted are inert.

As I understand the proposals, you wish to prohibit:
A: Firearms, of all legal types, and air rifles. This currently is only used for trade between Registered Firearms Dealers, but as such is vitally important to their businesses. The cost of transporting these items by registered private courier, in the necessary volume, to the necessary distances, and at the necessary speed, is prohibitive; this cost would be unmeetable by many Dealers, and would be passed on to the customers of those who were able to absorb it in the short term.

B: Component parts, including magazines. These items, at the moment, are sent between RFDs, to and from customers, and between enthusiasts of the shooting sports. Many businesses in this sport are conducted entirely by postal order, as many parts are specialist items. Many of these businesses are not RFDs, merely individuals or small businesses for whom the delivery costs would be completely prohibitive. For example, the courier costs on a single magazine for a .22 rifle can significantly exceed the value of the item. This would have to be passed on to the customer; many customers do not wish to pay exceedingly high shipping costs, and consequently these businesses would perish. In many cases these items are custom-made, and consequently there would then be no UK supplier for their products.

The reason provided is that you do not believe you are capable of preventing items you carry from being lost or stolen (I paraphrase, but if this was not the case then Section 14(1) would not worry you). I believe that:
A: This is mostly incorrect - the vast majority of posted items arrive safe and unopened at their destination.
B: 'Reasonable precautions' are, in fact, taken - if they were not, the Royal Mail would not be fit to transport post. All items in your care should have 'reasonable precautions' taken towards their safety, and consequently firearms and their components are NOT a special case.
And C: If A and/or B are not correct then the response should be to act to improve the service, rather than turning away an entire sector of profitable business.

I hope you will take this into consideration.

Regards,


(To zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com, if anyone wishes to join me in protesting.)
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve Order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -

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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby 1in9 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:17 am

In their poorly worded proposal in addition to prohibiting "firearms (including those listed in Section 1, Section 2 and Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended)), low-powered air rifles and pistols" they also ban postage of "all component parts such as triggers, actions, barrels and magazines;" not just licensed pressure bearing parts, everything: screws, stocks, magazines, springs, ejectors, the lot - despite being entirely legal to trade without restriction.

Specialist parts businesses and gunshops who trade online are mostly a long way below the delivery volume threshold to use alternative postal companies like TNT (min x250 a day). Also, most postal companies (rather than couriers) still use Royal Mail for the final delivery, so where would they stand using Royal Mail's network?

Royal Mail reliably gets my rifle magazines to Shetland for the same price as Sheffield, a courier will easily charge £30. Ordered the wrong size? Courier pickup? From Orkney? We shouldn't have to put people through it when the national service on their doorstep which knows the area works just fine.

Email sent to zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com

Going to be emailing Norman Lamb MP the minister for Postal Affairs tomorrow, then Ofcom as it's not on their consultancy list.

Time to get lobbying!
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Re: Royal Mail trying to stop carrying firearms and firearm

Postby Circus Orange » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:40 pm

Email sent to zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com

Going to send one to my MP, Bridget Phillipson - anyone got a brief template?
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